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To: Phil Hall "phil.hall@vgm.com"
From: nataliep@heartless-bitches.com
Subject: Re: "nice guys" article
Interesting points made, but the article creates an undesired effects
as
well; quote, "If you have one bad relationship after
another, the only
common denominator is YOU. Think about it."
Not entirely accurate, there is
another common denominator: the
unending stream of "evil bitches" (a term I
use, I'm sure
you have a few of your own.) Just like some women are "asshole
magnets" (they constantly find the WORST possible man to
date--abusive,
jerk, well... asshole.) So, the problem is therefore
two sided.
[You are missing the point entirely.
The old adage of "opposites attract" is misleading.
If you are attracted to fucked-up people ("evil
bitches") then there is something fucked up in YOU that needs
fixing.
Figure out how NOT to get attracted to them.
Same goes for women who wind up with abusive men.
They are fucked up
and need to figure themselves out or they'll just end up with another
asshole.]
[The article is not directed at decent, kind, considerate men who have healthy relationships. It is directed at whining, whinging men who claim that they can't get a date/relationship/fuck because they are too "nice" and all women want assholes. There is a very specific target audience for those articles. The men who object most heavily seem to be the ones that suffer most from the problems highlighted.]
"The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure."
Also not entirely true. Depending on where one is reared, some men are
taught that the woman should be given all the leeway in a relationship. I
generally agree, but there are limits, like my brother said once "Some shit
just shouldn't be allowed." So true. Men want to make their women "happy,"
thus the reason for acquiescence. Not always insecurity.
I don't buy your rationalization for a second. Regardless of where and how a man is raised,
if he acts like a doormat, he's insecure. The same is true for a woman.
" It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when
the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest
form of life..."
Are you saying, then, that there are just THAT many "evil
bitches" out
there?
[The women that they get attracted to don't have to be "evil
bitches" - they can be co-dependent alcoholics, they can be
clingy sponges.... They can be bi-polar borderlines. There are
just as many fucked-up women as fucked up men out there, and whiny,
insecure men who resort to blaming their relationship problems on
others, are getting attracted to the fucked up ones and are therefore
fucked up themselves.]
I see it all the time, and there are definitely some "f-ed
up" women
out there, but not as many as you may claim via the
above quote.
[Are you suggesting there are more fucked
up men then? Wouldn't that mean that it is harder for a woman to
find a decent guy then? Because so many of the men are fucked
up? *snort* ]
For instance, and I bet you have either seen this behavior yourself
(or, God
forbidding, you have engaged in it yourselves): The woman
complain that
there aren't any "nice guys" around, then
when one does show up, he's either not tall enough, not rich enough,
isn't good looking enough, or too good looking (how does that happen
anyway?) or some other drivel. Then the guy leaves and the cycle
repeats.
[and MEN never go through these kinds of phases?]
[Life is a wonderful teacher. It will teach you the same lesson over and over and over again, until you get it, or you die.]
Women need to learn something, and I'd appreciate it if you would
spread the word on this--there is NOT ONE man out there that will
meet all your pathetic criteria.
And you think only WOMEN need to learn this little gem?
*snork*. You just don't get it. You are taking offense at the
article because it kicks out the foundation of your little
blame-game.
You should look a lot more deeply into the mirror.
I think the above statement is seriously rife with PROJECTION.]
"Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure."
Are you saying that no "real" man can be those things?
[The article NEVER says that a decent guy can't be caring and
self-confident - it's just that THOSE kinds of guys don't have problems
finding decent relationships, they don't blame their problems on women,
and therefore do not call themselves "nice guys" by definition
of this article. Again, you are reading into the article looking
for things to justify your own resentment rather than reading for
content.]
Interesting, perhaps you need to read a bit more
history, it's filled with men who are those things and these were
leaders amongst men. Flawed logic there.
[ There is only
one person in this conversation with flawed logic. And it ain't me.]
"Nice Guys go overboard..." (I chose to not quote the whole
paragraph). Suffice to say you are both correct and wrong. SOME men
do do the "Roses to a coffee" crap. That would put me off
too! And nobody's affections (except "evil bitches'") can
be bought (or in the case of the "evil bitch" it's more
like rented.) Railing against unassertiveness leads one to question if
you
WANT assertiveness? If so, be advised that many women see
assertiveness as aggression, that's the kind of thing that EASILY
gets misinterpreted.
[ If you can't tell the difference between assertive and
aggressive, you need therapy. If you get more than one woman
interpreting what YOU think is assertive as aggressive, then you
better get help.
I've seen some men get hauled away for less.
[ You are trying to build a pathetically weak straw man. The
truck has driven through the holes in your sophistry (it doesn't
even qualify as logic) and you still can't hear the wind whistling
past....
Women need to learn that this whole "dating thing" is not easy for us in the slightest.
[ Wah. Wah. Fucking Wah. Would you like some cheese with that WHIIIIIIIINE?]
In a way, women have it EASY; after all, all women have to do is look passably ok. (There's an old
saying: It doesn't matter what she looks like, some guy will love her.)
[ Oh fer crissakes, the truth comes out plain as day. "Women have it easy, the poor guys have it so HAAAARD."
No time like the present for growing up and getting a grip on reality.]
"They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for
fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become
attracted to someone else." That happens, I've seen it.
"A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he
believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will
no longer love him."
This, too, happens a lot. Women, more than any other thing, are
visually inclined towards mates. Women look for the
"hottie," more than a man will (it's true.)
[*bwahahahaha*! Please cite your empirical evidence and
studies. The most hilarious thing about your ludicrous
statement is that generally people say that most MEN are more
"visually" stimulated than women (hence the reason that porn
is so prevalent with men).]
[So what you are saying is that you aren't Adonis, so the fault is
the women because they don't want you if you aren't studly?]
Whereas men learn that the best is inside,
[ *ROTFL* This is too rich. Men are just so DEEP and are
really interested in what a woman has INSIDE -- (yeah, like there
aren't any who are primarily interested in slipping something
INSIDE her...?)]
Sadly, most PEOPLE judge and select superficially - men and women
alike. Men aren't paragons of virtue in this scenario boyo.]
I've met many a woman (and have interacted with literally thousands via letters and email)
[ Wow. A regular don juan. You MUST know what you are talking about then... *snork*]
that admit straight up that "if the man isn't attractive [insert a laundry list of "must haves"] then he has no chance with me." Faced with that, most
men become emotional wrecks. This, my dear, is the Achilles Heel of all men.
[ Whose an emotional wreck? Sounds like you are trying to project your particular affliction on the rest of the males of the species so that you don't have to feel like any of it is YOUR responsibility. If men are emotional wrecks BECAUSE of women, why then its the WOMENS' fault, and you don't have to do ANYTHING about your own behavior or attitude.]
"Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions."
And if we make the decisions, she complains that she doesn't get to vote. Remember Suffrage? Women need to make the call now and then, anything else
and the undue burden is on US. Which isn't fair either.
[ Another point missed. It didn't say that Nice guys work cooperatively in a relationship.
It didn't say that the woman wants HIM to make all the decisions. It indicated that the kind of guys
who do this complaining put the burden of responsibility on HER. They don't participate as EQUALS.]
Gods, guys like you are THICK. No wonder women dump your sorry asses on the floor.
"They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the
relationship."
It can, I've seen it. (Luckily, it's only happened to me once.) There are a
LOT of women that want everything THEIR WAY. You step out of line and you're
dead.
[And I'll say it again - if you go out with fucked up people (as above) then YOU are fucked up and need to get YOURSELF sorted out so you don't find those kinds of jerks attractive.]
Of course those are the women that you definitely do NOT want to be
with, but sometimes men forget the Rule: "No matter how beautiful she is,
there is someone out there who was tired of putting up with her shit."
[ Wow. Not a bit of misogyny happening there. There are bimbos and himbos. If you are attracted to shallow traits, then don't complain when you break your neck diving into the pool and it only has 2 feet of water.]
"She wants an equal, caring, adult partner." DAMN STRAIGHT!
[ Too bad you didn't get that from any of the other parts of the article.]
"Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They
use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love
her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their
devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her:
"You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be
thankful I'm here.""
That's a lot of bullshit. Only someone truly dense could make that
assertion. How in the hell can adoration be a reverse compliment? Are you
too close to your computer screen or something?... We'll move on.
[ Again, you are too deep in your own shit to be able to smell it.
Find a good therapist.]
"This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like
themselves."
More bullshit. Nice Guys are the way they are BECAUSE of women and because
of how they were reared.
[ Ah. It's all those nasty EVIL womens' faults. Poor buggers don't have to do ANYTHING about their situation but sit around an whinge. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that men could be responsible for their own behavior and LEARN or UNLEARN unhealthy behaviors? Nope. Sadly, for the guys who are the target of the article (and obviously for the author of this letter), it is much easier to wallow in self-pity and blame women than it is to actually get off your ass and start looking HARD at yourself.]
Women can open the door themselves; they can lift the toilet seat ALL BY
THEMSELVES. Women can be strong and do things. Why do we need to treat you
differently? For that matter, why aren't women forced to register for the
Selective Service?
[I've got no complaints about that - but then there is nothing wrong with COURTESY in either direction, and YOU are obviously still attracted to women who AREN'T heartless bitches.
See the problem now?
[ I see a person with a problem. And a distinct inability to accept responsibility for his own behavior, responses and situations.]
Demanding equality is great, but you have to accept the
problems that will result.
[ Nice slip of the tongue/keys "problems that will result" - ahhh.. somebody who doesn't really WANT equality or believe in it. Threatened perhaps?]
I know of NO woman that wouldn't like to have
their cake and eat it too. (Actually men are no different.) Remember the
girl who sued the Citadel for entry (an all male military academy)? They
tried to keep her out because she'd put undo burden on an establishment that
wasn't able to deal with the change ("old" and "south" are intractable
things). She won, then went to the Citadel. They treated her differently
than anyone else, they gave her perks that the men did not have, and she
still quit--she couldn't take it.
[ One woman's actions does not represent the entire gender.
Women are like men in that 50% are above average and 50% are below.
Figure it out for yourself.
Double-standard in favor of women (naturally.) Women are the authors of the
"weaker sex" myth.
[ Ah. No. By and large, Men are the authors of that. It gives them greater power and maintains the control/status quo.
"Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They
deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders,
because Nice Guys are "helpers"."
Crapola. I dated a girl with Bi-polar problems. Did I know this up front?
[ If you were self-aware and didn't have issues, you wouldn't have found her attractive in the first place - regardless of her telling you about her bi-polar illness. You were attracted to her because something in YOU is ill.
No, she only told me later. After I was with her for a while. I did NOT seek
out a nutcase.
[
Yes, actually you did. It might not have been conscious, but it WAS something unhealthy in you that got attracted to her in the first place.
"You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk."
I have seen this EXACT type of man get accepted more than you can count. In
fact I think women suffer from a form of masochism. They truly enjoy being
abused by these assholes.
[ There are sick people everywhere, male and female. Healthy women do not get attracted to, nor do they enjoy abusive types. But YOU don't see them, or notice them, because you yourself are not healthy. This is the typical whiny "nice guy" blame line - women only want assholes.
Sure jerks get women - fucked up women. They attract them because the fucked up women mistake the
bravado and swagger for confidence. In the end they are just as ill as you are - just in a different way. And you eat your heart out over them because you just want to get laid at the core of it all and you see them getting what you can't have.
Thank you for reading this far. You might think from the above that I
had severe problems with your article. Not true, it's a fine piece of
work, and
some of it is valid. Some of it is not. From a woman's
perspective, you may feel that this is all correct; but as a man I can
tell you that you have only half the story.
[ I think it's pretty clear that someone here is only willing to look at half the story (and filtered through his own self-pity glasses at that), and it ain't me.
I find it hilarious that so many men ask a woman "why" and
when she tells him the truth, he tells her she's wrong. The articles
tell "nice guys" WHY. Some get it. Some REALLY
get it. Unfortunately, most (male) respondents to this site
don't. Most don't have the spine or the self-awarness to make the
inner journey. It's much easier to blame an entire gender than to
have to clean up your own stinky shit. (And it does smell.... your
letter reeks)
heartlessly,
-Natalie
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