The "Nice Guys" archive

Comments - round 36
Comments - round 35
Comments - round 34
Comments - round 33
Comments - round 32
Comments - round 31
Comments - round 30
Comments - round 29
Comments - round 28
Comments - round 27
Comments - round 26
Comments - round 25
Comments - round 24
Comments - round 23
Comments - round 22
Comments - round 21
Comments - round 20
Comments - round 19
Comments - round 18
Comments - round 17
Comments - round 16
Comments - round 15
Comments - round 14
Comments - round 13
Comments - round 12
Comments - round 11
Comments - round 10
Comments - round 9
Comments - round 8
Comments - round 7
Comments - round 6
Comments - round 5
Comments - round 4
Comments - round 3
Comments - round 2
Comments - round 1.5
Comments - round 1
Nice Guys = BLEAH!
Nice Guys we can do without

The latest comments from and about Nice Guys...

Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005
From: Nonoy Batuta
Subject: Hi

Hi,

This would kinda sound stupid but here it goes...I've accidentally stumbled upon your website and read about the whole "Nice Guy" articles,and yes I consider myself one of those guys(too bad).I need help but I think it wouldnt be appropriate to ask someone who is busy doing more important things in her life(sorry about my English Im from Asia >_<).I think if there something to be changed it should start with me right?.Anyway thanks for HBI,I really learned a lot,although its hard to start all over again about how you should think and how you should be like in a womans life...well its like being born again*sigh*.Enough with the drama crap!anyway thanks again and more power to your site!(or to whoever contribute to this site)

Yours,

Fart of Asia(lol)


Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:01 -0500
Subject: Male Flame form : Rob

COMMENTS: Just wanted to say thanks for not generalising on the fact all "nice guys" are the same, just wish I didnt have to fill out the silly form just to say "thankyou".

[ You didn't. There are other ways to send us mail. Under "Contact Us" for example.]

Just seems people will to easily bitch about something and forget that there are exceptions to the rule. Could you make the point more clear as it is probably the reason why you get so many men and perhaps a few women bitching on this website

Hope I dont get flamed


Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:00 -0500
Subject: Male Flame form : Nicholas

COMMENTS: Well, just a quick note. My slut of an ex-girlfriend tried to use your Nice Guy article to defend her rather indiscreet hijinx. I promptly told her I would rather study my own shit for portents of the future than read a blog written by an emotionally unstable spinster

It was good for a laugh, if nothing else. You should probably have that cynicism checked at the door if you plan on rejoining the rest of us human beings

[She sounds like she was no prize, but given this guy's attitudes and comments, I'd say she was wise to get the hell away from him. It's amazing how many guys who classify themselves as "nice" are so quick to label women "sluts" or "bitches".]


From: David
Subject: Thanks! (no, honestly, thank you.)
Hi -

I just thought I'd write and tell you all how much I appreciate your site. I first stumbled on it about 2 years ago when looking for an adequate rebuttal to this (http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~jenf/writing/rant04.html) "wonderful" essay on nice guys. I have to say, you guys definitely are far better at providing honest and direct answers than this mealy mouthed crap. I remember sending out your article answering the "nice guy" question to any buddy of mine sending me this

I won't lie, I used to pretty much BE the stereotypical "nice guy" in high school in that I was self-pitying, self-centered, etc (though, I never actually started dating til my senior year of high school). It took about one year in college and a couple of false starts to realize my mistakes of self pity and idiocy. Granted I might come off as a bit of a hardass (I don't deal well with stupidity) these days, but at least I'm honest with myself and everyone else. Reading your site's opinions definitely help me affirm what I had learned from personal experience

I just thought that you might like to know that your opinions are appreciated and well received. And that women aren't the only ones who get pissed off at nice guys... I've had to yell at a couple of my friends to grow a spine when they spout that shit off at me - though I'm starting to feel some people will never learn until they have first hand experience proving this point. At any rate, I think I'm just blabbing on right now. I'll end by saying that I wish more people (not just women) thought like you all. The world might be a slightly more sane place then!

Doorstop

PS - I think I might have sent this through the Flame Male thing. Though the form was funny as hell, and fun to fill out too, I think this might get through to you better


Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005
From: Eric Berend
Subject: Praise and cuation

Dear H.B.S. (Heartless Bitch Supreme),

Your site is a blast. The lack of PC-itis disease that infects so many other commentators is quite refreshing. Obviously, the "wimpy" 'nice guy' topic is a real motivation for your honest expression in this forum. With the emphasis you have placed on this, however, it is possible you have over-looked certain aspects of the situation

As boys grow up, they are forced to develop and live in an environment that is rampant with bullying abuse of power, and has many mechanisms, social and official, to perpetuate this psychology. Even the current criminal regime that has been allowed to gain power in the US government, now perpetuates this psychology. Girls MAY have a social equivalent, I don't pretend to know the savagery of your own experiences. But, IMO, you are not recoqnizing this aspect sufficiently, and therefore not taking it into account. (...and no crap of "wah, wah" here, whining is NOT my purpose)

Few boys or men have an ideal path towards confident maturity, in the changing milieu of the past three generations. Men have recently been presented with much more contradictions of behavioral expectations than women, where even though one may be shallow, untrustworthy, and callous, everything's cool anyway, baby..."Grrrrl Power" and all that. Generally, as a male, one is exhorted to "be tough", "be a man", so often even when just four to six years old, with less physical basis to support socialization skills than girls (refer to the book "Sex and the Brain" and other works in this area). Seldom is a boy presented with a balanced, comprehensive view when being shown or taught issues of assertion and comportment

What about compassion? What about kindness? These qualities are not supported in any consistently healthy fashion, so great is the underlying fear not to encourage "wimpishness" in a boy, that this society has created a bifurcation that subtly equates bullying with success, and kindness with weakness. Since there is no integration of these seemingly contradictory forces, why should there be such great expectation of balance and maturity occurring automatically in men? This does not happen in some mystical 'dork' vacuum; it is the challenge offered to males, whether we see it or not, to figure it each out on our own, unless lucky enough to have a healthy strong mentor or role model.

In addition, I am sure you have noticed the denigration of men and boys that has become so prevalent in mass media, in television commercials and sitcoms, in movies, and print media such as greeting cards. If millions of girls can become affected with eating disorders over cruelly unrealistic images and expectations, shall we expect that boys and men are immune to these effects, as well?

Hey, you guys are the ones BUYING INTO IT. I've often wondered why I don't see men rising up in protest over the portrayal of men as mindless, stupid, sex-obsessed creatures in both commercials and TV shows. If it offends you, then take it to the networks and the advertisers.]

So if you were subjected to a situation where media imagery frequently presented you with ridicule just for being female, and conflicting influences from the authority figures in your life, along with the menacing and physical threats that are common in boys' lives, together with a lag in social development that seems natural to most scientific observers, AND the raging hormone-bath of adolescence, how would you get it so perfectly right, so soon? You haven't had two generations of so many of the other gender hating you, holding you responsible for the actions of others of your own kind, and then been condemned without fair consideration

[Buddy, you are SO suffering from delusions of oppression. Women ARE hated by far too many men. Hell the big 3 religions pretty much blame women for all ills, starting with the downfall of Adam. And it's not like women have HORMONES or anything, is it? And of course, women NEVER get ridiculed, for say, being TOO FAT, or TOO THIN or not pretty enough, or not wearing the "right" clothes. Nope, only GUYS suffer from that kind of behavior. Women aren't faced with menacing and physical threats? How many men get RAPED every day in the US? Yeah, we women know NOTHING about the threat of violence.]

As a woman, gifted as you are with some natural social advantages,

[Women are gifted and men are the poor hapless victims. Gods, this song is getting OLD.]

knowing yourself and these emotions may seem so obvious, and that is terrific. But it is all too easy to deride another when you have not experienced their life. Amidst this ease, you may be succumbing to impatience.

[What a classic whiner. Women have it "easy" and men suffer under the slings and arrows of peer pressure.]

For a boy or man, it is more difficult than you suppose, to get it right.

[You know what? I don't give a shit. SUCK. IT. UP. and stop whining about how HHHHAAAARD it is. Grab your balls and FIGURE IT OUT. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, faces some kind of challenges in their lives. I just heard a woman filmmaker on the radio who came back after a stroke that left her a quadrapalegic and went on to make another film. And you send me whiny rants about how HARD it is for guys not to act like utter dorks. It's this kind of self-pitying, self-absorbtion that is at the ROOT of your problems buddy.]

With so many sometimes contradictory messages about male behavior, and without the social check girls often get with each other in their naturally greater genetic communicative

[Women's propensity for communication is a fucking LEARNED behavior, not a natural genetic advantage. Men can too. Grow UP.]

basis through childhood and adolescence, it is much more confusing than it might seem; in particular, when many, if not most mothers teach their sons the language and wording of statements such as "women want a nice man"; with so many television talk shows, advice columns, and websites, where when asked "who do you want to meet and have a relationship with?", women often say they want a "nice guy".

[Smart, confident women want DECENT, KIND, COMPASSIONATE men who have spines and some self-confidence. This is not the same as the self-absorbed losers who call themselves "nice guys" as if it is some badge of martyrdom or worse an EXCUSE for continuing to act like an ass.]

YOU and other women are usually able to recognized the 'codespeak' here: "nice guy" really means "good man". But most men do not: the words expressed are taken literally

In this situation, it should not be surprising that too few men have it "just right", or there would not be so many 'nice guys' for you to express such disgust about. After all, if the phenomenon were rare or uncommon, your site would not have much web traffic, nor over 20, now stretching towards 30 pages of responses. So obviously, you have hit a nerve

[Apparently not deeply enough... *sigh*]

As a man, this bifurcation cannot be ignored, and for the sake of day-to-day getting along and fitting in, most men take their cues from the social environment

With little basis for assurance in the absence of a strong mentor, a man with compassion tends to err towards the side of caution, especially having been bombarded with such denigration and censureship in the media, and by many women. So, like it or not, to become a whole male human being, most men have to go through some sort of "nice guy" phase, as part of the process of working it out on one's own. It may be frustrating, it may be awkward and ugly, but it is unavoidable for most, in the process of men's self-discovery

[Unfortunately, too many of them never come out of the "nice guy" phase, finding it convenient to blame others for why they can't get their shit together and grow a spine.]

To this end, and despite your impatience, your site performs a very valuable function, cutting through the clutter and telling it like it is. It makes a big difference for a man, receiving these messages from a woman, who is not a traditionalist nor merely a feminist bigot with a hate-filled axe to grind (...too many men like this, too...deplorable). Very helpful for any man who is working through these issues, who has the courage to face the problem with a determination to succeed

[It would be even better if guys didn't continue to make excuses for their bad behavior while sort of complimenting us...]

Best Regards,

Eric Berend


From: "Andre C."
Subject: Nice guys, bane of my existence
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005

Hello Heartless Bitches,

I just know this is a bad idea, but I'm feeling especially stupid tonight. The thing is, I'm a nice guy. Yes, often I'm the loser kind with the awkward sense of timing, the kind and helping demeanour with the jealous and passive aggressive flip side... I know all about the compulsive stupidity of nice guys, and the icky ways it screws up our relationships with women. We don't like it any more than you do

But I'm not sure how being heartless bitches to us is any more mature

So here's some flamebait for your amusement--ideas for dealing with loser nice guys:

1) Stop castrating them. Maybe you don't want to help them, but why knock them down except to satisfy some need of your own to feel superior?

[Nobody can make you feel "castrated" without your consent. If the shoe doesn't fit, then stop STUFFING YOUR FOOT IN IT. The truth of the matter is that being NICE to these guys doesn't get through to them. Only a kick to the frontal lobe has a hope of dislodging their heads from their asses.]

2) Meaningful feedback. If a nice guy does something wrong; here's a thought--TELL HIM!

[You know what? Many, many women do, but they find it is pointless. The clueless idiots we are talking about here either DON'T get it, or think she is a bitch for saying anything. Besides, it's not HER job, or any woman's job, for that matter, to "help" you become a better man. Drop the sense of entitlement. We are giving guys the message here because we are trying to do a service for all those women who have to get these guys to stop humping their legs. Believe it or not, some DO get it, so it's not time wasted.]

Don't make up excuses if you don't to see him like a coward. Don't ask him if you can just be friends. Don't ridicule him behind his back. That doesn't mean you have to hold his hand. Just look him in the eye and tell him exactly what he's done wrong and how he can improve.

[You know what? Many, many women do, but they find it is pointless. The clueless idiots we are talking about here either DON'T get it, or think she is a bitch for saying anything. Besides, it's not HER job, or any woman's job, for that matter, to "help" you become a better man. Drop the sense of entitlement. We are giving guys the message here because we are trying to do a service for all those women who have to get these guys to stop humping their legs. Believe it or not, some DO get it, so it's not time wasted.]

If you want these guys to act like adults, you have to treat them like adults and behave like adults yourselves

[Woah. What happened to the GUY having to act like an adult in the first place? Why is it HER responsibity to get HIM to act like an adult? Not that I condone people NOT telling the truth, but some guys are just too creepy. Women have to use their intuition. I've heard far too many stories about the "Nice Guys" that turned into stalkers. A woman's self preservation is more important than "helping" some guy figure out how to act like an adult.]

3) If you really really don't like nice guy losers, then round up a posse and hunt us all down. Please, for the love of Pete, put us out of our misery. We don't want to be losers any more than you want us around, so please, shoot us. But then don't be upset when you live in a world populated entirely by assholes

[You know, it's precisely this kind of "poor me" crap that makes you guys such deplorable LOSERS. No wonder women find you offensive. Guys with your kind of attitude aren't "NiceGuys" - you're ASSHOLES.]

Ah... Let the flaming begin..

Sincerely,

[Nothing like false sincerity to hammer home a point, eh?]

-Andy C



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