The "Nice Guys" archive

Comments - round 36
Comments - round 35
Comments - round 34
Comments - round 33
Comments - round 32
Comments - round 31
Comments - round 30
Comments - round 29
Comments - round 28
Comments - round 27
Comments - round 26
Comments - round 25
Comments - round 24
Comments - round 23
Comments - round 22
Comments - round 21
Comments - round 20
Comments - round 19
Comments - round 18
Comments - round 17
Comments - round 16
Comments - round 15
Comments - round 14
Comments - round 13
Comments - round 12
Comments - round 11
Comments - round 10
Comments - round 9
Comments - round 8
Comments - round 7
Comments - round 6
Comments - round 5
Comments - round 4
Comments - round 3
Comments - round 2
Comments - round 1.5
Comments - round 1
Nice Guys = BLEAH!
Nice Guys we can do without

And Still more comments from and about Nice Guys...

From: "Jonathan Khoury" (greek_cataphract@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 22:55:22 -0400

Very interesting article I read in this link: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml#top . I only have two complaints against it however: 1) the issue of the guy asking the woman to make decisions; 2) the issue of adoration being considered an insult.

With regards to issue 1, I would like to say that as a self-proclaimed "nice guy" who woke up and smelled the coffee, when we ask women what they want to do, we ask out of one of two reasons. One: We want to have a sense of partnership and fairness, I'd like to see a relationship as a 50/50 deal. I still have remained single however, so I'm going to assume that is the wrong view. The thing that puzzles me is that you also mentioned how women want to be treated like partners, I would think the 50/50 concept fits in with that. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a genius here, just a cynic.

[The point being raised wasn't that the "nice guy" ASKS what the woman wants to do, it's that he puts HER in the position of making the decisions ALL or most of the time. Men suffering from chronic "Nice Guy Syndrome" don't understand that EQUAL does not mean "always deferring to her". Women spend much of their time planning, scheduling and resourcing theirs and other's lives. It's an essential part of a healthy relationship that MEN take a role in this too. Being a good partner does NOT mean always saying, "I dunno honey, what do YOU want to do tonight?"]

Secondly, the issue of adoration I feel should not be taken as an insult. If anything, if you were open-minded and "thought outside the box" more often, you'd realize that it is just a compliment taken to the extreme.

[Yeah, and Stalking is just infatuation taken to an extreme. It doesn't mean it's HEALTHY or even appropriate.]

There is one girl that will forever stay in my heart, she was a dear friend to me, and remains to this day, and I can truly say I loved her at one point. I'm not saying that there won't be other potential loves out there. Dr. Murray Banks, a psychiatrist who would do live performances demonstrating psychology through humor, stated that there is "no one and only shmoe." He is absolutely right, there are plenty of "shmoes" out there for everyone, its just an issue of finding that one. I will however say this, each time one falls in love, it is different, unique and special. It'll never compare to any other one. And referring back to that friend of mine, I will always love her, maybe not in the way I once did, but she will always be special to me. And you even mentioned that in your rant, so I believe that you may understand where I'm coming from here.

[I think you are missing the point again. The kind of "Adoration" we were talking about is the kind where the Nice Guy fails to see the object of his adoration as real, with failings and flaws. He idealizes her; projects HIS idea of who she is onto her, and in doing so, objectifies her. Many "Nice Guys" also smother the object of their adoration with so much unwanted attention that the woman can hardly breathe...]

Overall, I do agree with most of your rant. I will however add my two bit sense in (and I'm sure after you finish reading it, you'll say it was worth less than two cents).

["Two Bits" is a quarter, btw...]

I feel that women are more comfortable with using a guy to get what they want.

[Ahhhh... the REAL misogyny creeps out...]

Why do you think the "nice guys" are always feeling suckered?

[Just as Eleanor Roosvelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent", I'll tell you, "No one can sucker you without your consent." "Nice Guys" get suckered because they don't see women as real, they idealize the objects of their affections, they are DESPERATE, and leave themselves open to predators. Women get suckered too. Just as often, by predatory men. No gender has the monopoly on manipulation and deceit.]

I've seen it happen countless times to guys I've know.

[Like attracts like. I'd say that says more about YOU and the friends you keep than about womenkind in general.]

Now what does that say about the fairer sex when you have some of them running around suckering hapless, foolish guys over?

[See? It's this whole "fairer sex" stuff that gives him away. Women are SUPPOSED to behave a certain way in this guy's books, and when they fail to live up to his expectations, WELL...!]

In my own opinion,

[Who else's would it be?]

that doesn't speak to well of women.

[Well, I'D say it doesn't speak well of you and your lame friends who are so desperate that they attract predators.]

And I do realize you will cite the way men use women for nothing but sensual pleasure and I won't deny that.

[Men who use women do it for a variety of reasons - sex being only one of them. Some just want a mother, or security, or financial support.]

There are men out there who do use women as nothing but sex objects. Not all men are like that; it takes a man to be a partner and a father, just remember that.

[That's odd, that he should be lecturing US on this when the entire topic he is criticising is about MEN who can't step up to the plate as equals. What really irks them is that the men these "Nice Guys" revile are just more successful manipulators than they are.]

Anyone can do a "fuck no chuck." Just as it takes a real woman to be a partner and a mother.

[Really? Anyone can? So how come so many "Nice Guys" complain about not being able to "get laid"?]

Lastly, I believe that if you are trying to put yourselves on a high pedestal, at least morally, I feel that you should also be willing to reach out to the nice guys than.

[We have a WHOLE section devoted to telling Nice Guys EXACTLY what is wrong with their behavior and how to get their shit together. What more REACHING OUT do you want? Ohhh... you want us to CODDLE you. Sorry. What part of "Heartless Bitches" did you not understand?]

Your rhetoric struck me as sounding a little superior to the male gender.

[Our polemic attacks whiners, not the entire male gender. It's SUCH a whiny cop-out: you don't want to face the fact that YOU might have issues, so it is easier to cry "man hater" than to look in the mirror and suck it up.]

If that is the case, is it not the responsibility of the superior (or leader) to aid the lesser?

[Since I don't believe I am superior to men, I don't think it is my JOB to wipe their asses, collectively or individually. As for you, we showed you where the toilet paper was. Figure it out for yourself.]

I would expect nothing less from my wealthy representatives in my government' that if they are wealthy, make their money from the backs of middle class and poor class workers, get voted in by those same classes, than those wealthy representatives have a duty to those middle and poor classes.

[ooohhh. This guy REALLY does have a bad case of "poor me" syndrome! Now he is implying that women have achieved "superiority" by exploiting men. This is utterly laughable. No WONDER this guy can't find anyone decent to hook up with.]

And I do recognize the female gender as the superior gender.

[That's funny. I don't.]

I have received enough education to realize that genetically, emotionally, and in intelligence, you are the leader.

[No, it's just that YOU have no spine.]

I am a firm believer in the superiority of women. Thus, if there is a tone of superiority within you, I would suggest that you open your arms up and try to help that nice guy instead of just criticizing him.

[Pal, if you can't figure out how to behave like a responsible ADULT by the age of 18, you are so NOT my problem. Maybe you need to find a nice dominatrix who will help you live out your "female superiority" fantasies...]

Lastly, society has pounded it into our minds that we need to be with someone, that being single is bad. I wonder how those media moguls sleep at night knowing they are preying on the insecurities of these men and women. In this day n' age, we need to and that someone is there for us, that is hard to do since you're going against social norms.

[He got increasingly incomprehensible in this last tangent...]

Thank you for your time.

[Thank-you for the fodder.]

-Jonathan


Date: Sun, 9 May 2004
From: Juan Dominick Willis (bonzo_the_fifth@yahoo.com)
Subject: You've truly opened my mind...

Dear Bitches? (that sounds so inappropriate...)

[Sounds perfectly appropriate to me...]

I don't know if this is the proper place to send this, but I wanted to comment on your section regarding Nice Guys (TM). Specifically regarding your articles talking about the underlying misogynistic motivations that can be in them.

You're absolutely right! There are two kinds of 'nice guys' if you want to look at it that way. You have genuinely nice people (male and female), who do kind things simply as a matter of course, and who never make a big deal out of anything they do, not because they're being a martyr, or earning Brownie points, but just because they don't consider it important. These nice people are rare, rare breeds indeed.

Most nice people fall into the other 'nice' category. The ones who use the trappings as just another manipulation tool. I don't need to describe it since so many have done so much better.

The point is, I used to be one of the latter, thinking I was the former. I've since discovered the truth and corrected my ways. I only wish I'd known of this site sooner, as it could have helped me a lot with recognizing the bad behaviours I had ingrained in myself.

Better late than never, though... :-)

Now, while I'm still a 'nice' guy, I'm not manipulating anyone with it, just being that, nice. If someone appreciates it, then great, I have a friend. Otherwise, what difference does it make? After all, isn't that was 'nice' is supposed to be?

At any rate, thanks for the great site, and keep up the good work. I'll be sure to visit often and hopefully, be inspired some more.

Sincerely,

Dominick


From: "Micheal Kennedy" (superman125_5@hotmail.com)
Subject: Comment from a MAN
Date: Sat, 15 May 2004

I'd like to start out by saying, you have a great website. This stuff is hilarious and any guy that gives complaints about your website obviously falls into the catagories you are making fun of. Most of all i'd like to say that your posts on nice guys are all but false. Nice guys need to be bitch slapped by more heartless bitches.. this way they will realize they are only a disgrace to men. Nobody wants to listen to their whining and moaning.

You have my support


From: "Philip Johnson" (we_pirates_who_dont_do_anything86@hotmail.com)
Subject: Just read your website and unfortunatly I can relate
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004

See I'm a nice guy (yup start hating now), I go through periods of wallowing pathetically in myself pitty, even when I know there are people worse off than me, recently I was a little jelous of a guy going out with a girl who comes off very nice (though I did learn recently she has loyalty issuses) so I have given up and moved on, but I know that I'm still a nice guy and thats where my problem is for never really succeeding in getting into a relationship.

I realise I have a problem (wait am I pittying myself again or would you atcually agree?) but what I struggle on is how to become more comfortable with myself, to become more confident and just get out of the way I currently think.

Not that it hugely affects it but I'm 17 years old.

Anyway nice site, its funny and it bought alot home.


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